Posts by Disillusioned JW

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

Some other things perplexing about the book of Revelation are the following. After chapter 20 mentions the Devil being "hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur" and of death and Hades being "hurled into the lake of fire" and after chapter 21 mentions "the holy New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven" and of that the "tent of God is with mankind", Revelation 21:8 mentions that murderers, fornicators, and others will be in "the lake that burns with fire and sulphur ... the second death.". Still later chapter 22 after mentioning those who will have access to eating from trees of life and also have entrance into the city, verse 15 says "Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie." Chapter 22 verse 19 mentions that "God will take" the portion of some people "away from the trees of life". Those verses make it seem like the book is saying that even after the 1000 years have ended and even after death has ended and after all unrighteousness has ended, there still be those doing unrighteousness (outside the holy city) and that there will still be those who will go into the lake of fire. Such appears to be a huge contradiction, one which is extremely hard (at least for me) to reconcile. Perhaps some of these passages have meanings (and time sequences) which overlap each other, rather than they all being in one temporal sequential order.

Regarding the dogs mentioned in chapter 22:15 page 675 of the Babylon the Great book says the following. "... the people who are like scavenger dogs of the streets, who practice homosexuality, sodomy, Lesbianism, viciousness, cruelty (Deuteronomy 23:18; Psalm 22:16, 20; Matthew 7:6; Philippians 3:2) ...".

Page 656 of the Babylon the Great book offers what might be a correct explanation of the biblical meaning of some of the above, for it says the following. 'Even the Adamic death itself and Hades or Sheol are hurled into the "second death." ... It is Adamic death that will be no more, but not the "second death". '

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

Correction: After I revised my prior post I should have deleted the words "I think the WT says (incorrectly) that the courtyard thus extends to Earth."

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

By the way, JWs, Revelation 7:15 (1984 NWT) says the great crowd "... are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple ....". The WT's Kingdom Interlinear reveals regarding the location of the great crowd that the Greek word (naos) translated "temple" in that verse means the temple sanctuary (in the former earthly temples in Jerusalem only priests were allowed to enter the temple sanctuary), not the temple courtyard. [See also https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/great-crowd-other-sheep.php .] That insight thus refutes the WT's explanation of Revelation 7:9-10 in which the WT says verse 8 indicates the great crowd are on Earth (and thus the WT incorrectly says the great crowd "serve in the earthly courtyard of Jehovah's great spiritual temple") and not the sanctuary. [Maybe that is part of the reason the number of partakers of the JW's Memorial emblems in recent years has been increasing instead of decreasing.] I think the WT says (incorrectly) that the courtyard thus extends to Earth. Also the description of a great crowd wearing white robes fits the idea of the great crowd being priests serving in the temple and with the great crowd being shown (by scripture) as being the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation, and that thus the number 144,000 (as used in Revelation) is a symbolic number rather than a literal number.

34

Betty Georges - The Female Helper to the Governing Body

by MillennialDawn in

jw
friends

betty georges is listed as a helper to the governing body service committee, according to this page on the website: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/governing-body-jw-helpers/.

anybody know anything about her?.

Disillusioned JW

The JW web page says says the following. "Service Committee: Oversees our work of preaching the “good news of the Kingdom.” I reject the idea expressed in the remark of "they are two women who service GB members." I totally reject the claim that Jody and Betty 'service' the governing body members in the modern slang sexually derogatory sense of 'service a man' and of 'servicing men'.

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

peacefulpete you make good points but there is something else to consider regarding if Revelation says resurrections will take place during the 1000 years. If I recall correctly, there are verses in Revelation which say that all who receive the mark of the beast will be executed by God, and there are verses in Revelation which say that all who refuse to receive the mark of the beast will be executed by the beast. As a result, when those verses are combined that means Revelation is saying that no human will live through the great tribulation and Armageddon to enter the 1000 year period as living humans. [The book says the righteous will be killed by the beast but then live in heaven. The book also says the great crowd are in heaven in the heavenly temple and are before God's throne. Yet, Revelation 20:3 (1984 NWT) says that during the 1000 years Satan is in the abyss so "... that he might not mislead the nations any more until the thousand years were ended." As a result Revelation is also saying there will be humans (for it says there we be nations) living on Earth during the 1000 years. Years ago (probably starting when I was still an independent Christian) that made me thus wonder who are these people whom Revelation says will be alive on Earth during the 1000 years. I later concluded that according to Revelation it must be the people whom Revelation 20:5 will be resurrected, even though that verse says they will "... not come to life until the thousand years [have] ended." But then that created the puzzle of how can one reconcile the idea that they will be resurrected during the 1000 years since the verse if is when the 1000 years have ended. I possibly solved that puzzle in part by reading old WT literature (such as the book from the 1960s called Babylon the Great). The old WT literature says they don't come to life in the fullest sense of being alive until after the 1000 years have ended - after they became perfect humans. That idea seems strange but just a moment ago I thought of something which provides the means to understand it.

Recall that Genesis chapter 2 says YHWH/Jehovah God told Adam that if he eats from the tree of center of the garden (the tree of knowledge) then he would die in that very day. Yet chapter 3 says that Adam and Eve later ate it and yet did not become dead (in the full literal sense) during that solar day. That is an apparent contradiction (or makes it looks life God lied or couldn't keep his word, and that the serpent thus told the literal truth). Chapter 4 even says that after being expelled from the Garden they produced offspring. Chapter 5 says Adam lived 930 years (nearly 1000 years) and then he died. The WT says that though he wasn't literally dead in the full sense of the word "dead" in the solar day he sinned, nonetheless his body (and Eve's) became began to break down. In other words, the interpretation is that both the death sentence was uttered by God, and that the dying process began, on the solar day in which they ate the forbidden fruit, and that they became imperfect on that very solar day. Furthermore, a verse in the Bible says that to YHWH/Jehovah a day is as 1000 years and a 1000 years is as a one day. Multiple Bible verses also speak of a judgement day of YHWH/Jehovah and yet those verses don't mean that the 'day' of YHWH lasts for no more than one solar day. That is also something pointed out by the WT. According to the WT during the 1000years the process of dying is reversed for those living on the Earth, and at the end of the 1000 they become perfect and full alive. Figuratively speaking, that is a mirror image symmetry ( a reverse image) of what happened to Adam and Eve. That is how I reconcile (or at least think is a possible reconciliation of) the statements in Revelation about the 1000 years and resurrection time frame mentioned in Revelation 20:5.

In a number of cases, the more I study and contemplate Bible's statements the more understandable and harmonious (and non-contradictory) it becomes (seems) to me, even though I am now an atheistic naturalist. Furthermore, even reading some of the WT's literature (even its literature by Rutherford from nearly 100 years ago) helps to achieve such. I am surprised each time I discover such reconciliations of passages in the Bible which initially seem to outright contradictions.

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

enoughisenough, the WT is not saying that during the 1000 years that no one will allowed to do evil deeds. Instead the WT is saying that during the 1000 years that no one will allowed to practice evil deeds. That is a distinction. For example, according to the Bible every human alive commits sin, but also according to the Bible not every human practices sin. I am surprised that some people (ones who are JWs or who have been JWs) on this site don't recognize that distinction. Folks, please read 1 John 2:1-6 (1984 NWT) and 1 John 3:4-8 (1984 NWT) and please compare them with each other. The WT in various articles have explained the difference between doing a sin and repeatedly doing sin (practicing sin), and their 1984 NWT translation of 1 John 3:4-9 is careful to use the word "practices" (the some word used in the WT article from 2022 which was quoted, and the 1965 article says "practicing"), unlike how many other Bibles translate 1 John 3:4-9 (for example in those verses the RSV, the NRSV, and the NKJV say "commits sin" instead of "practices sin").

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

Though I didn't plan to make a further post in this topic, I have changed my mind. I now say the following.

Note that September 2022 Study Watchtower - p. 18 par. 14 says the WT is stating a change of doctrine. Paragraph 14 of that article says in part the following.

'In the past, we understood Jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things. However, note that Jesus does not say that those who have just come out of the memorial tombs will do good things or will practice vile things. He uses the past tense. He speaks of those who “did good things” and those who “practiced vile things.” This indicates that these actions took place before their death. That makes sense, does it not? After all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world. The unrighteous must have practiced these vile things before their death.'

That shows that the WT (in their September 2022 Study article of the Watchtower called 'Is Your Name in “the Book of Life”?') is stating a change in doctrine, just as I mentioned in my earlier post. Further in the above quote the context within the paragraph makes it clear, when read carefully, that the ones spoken of in the quote are those currently practicing vile things, and those who are dead who had done such in the past, and those who will do such before they die and later become resurrected.

Regarding the September 2022 Study article of the Watchtower called 'Is Your Name in “the Book of Life”?', page 18 paragraph 14 of that article is not contradicting page 19 paragraph 18 of the same article. BoogerMan, Are you so intent in find contradictions in the WT's words, that you didn't try to see if the WT meant their words in page 18 paragraph 14 in a way which does not contradict their words of
page 19 paragraph 18 of the same article?

People sometimes say things which though not being a contradiction seem (at first thought) to others to be a contradiction, until the others figure out what the people meant. It is important to figure out what is the intended meaning, rather than automatically assuming there is a contradiction. For example, there are statements in the Bible which appear to be clear contradictions, but upon careful analysis some of those statements are later discerned to not be contradictions. Many words have a range of meanings, and thus in some sentences a word (or a brief phrase) has one meaning but in another sentence the exact same word (or the brief phrase) has a different meaning.

Folks, notice that the change of doctrine stated in the above mentioned article came shortly before the WT announced new governing body members in early 2023 and shortly before Anthony Morris III ceased being a governing body member. Do you think there is connection between such?

The above stated change in doctrine is much more consistent with the Bible than the WT's prior doctrine in the matter. I have noticed that a number of the WT's doctrinal changes in the past 10 years are much more in agreement with the Bible than the older doctrinal versions which were replaced by them. For example, one the doctrinal improvement is the one which says that Gog of Magog is not Satan the Devil. A careful reading of the OT Bible shows that when it writes about Gog of Magog it is writing about a human or group of humans (or of a human government or a group of human governments) instead of about a supernatural being.

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

I have now drastically revised this post after noticing that in Boogerman's most recent post in this topic he/she is quoting from a 1965 WT article and comparing it to a September 2022 WT article. At first I didn't notice that because in an earlier post he/show was comparing two paragraphs from one September 2022 article. I have now read part of the 1965 article.

It appears to me that in the September 2022 article the WT slightly changed their doctrine which they had taught in the w65 1/1 p. 20 par. 5, to say that no one will being practicing vile things after they are resurrected, though also indicating some people might do some vile things after they are resurrected.

I don't plan to make further posts in this topic thread.

34

Betty Georges - The Female Helper to the Governing Body

by MillennialDawn in

jw
friends

betty georges is listed as a helper to the governing body service committee, according to this page on the website: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/governing-body-jw-helpers/.

anybody know anything about her?.

Disillusioned JW

https://www.everything-birthday.com/name/f/Betty says the following.

"Betty is predominantly a girls name, with 99.64% of Bettys being girls, and 0.36% being boys.

In the United States there have been a total of 3619 males named Betty, and 999979 females given the name".

I wonder if most of the males named Betty were intersexual (hermaphrodites) and thus if their sex (male or female) was ambiguous when born (especially if they were born before genetic tests were available). Another possibility that maybe they looked more like girls when they were born, thus causing the doctor and the parents to think the newborn baby was a girl. For example, maybe their testes had not yet descended. See https://www.childrenshospital.org/conditions/undescended-testes-cryptorchidism which says the following.

"Undescended testicles, also known as cryptorchidism, is a fairly common and normally painless congenital condition in which one or both of a baby's testicles (testes) have not moved into the proper position. One to 2 percent of male infants are affected. ...

Premature babies are affected by undescended testicles at a higher rate. The more premature your baby is, the higher the chance of having an undescended testicle."

Another possibility is that maybe in many cases the parents really wanted a girl to be born instead of a boy, and/or maybe they were expecting a girl to be born, and thus gave the baby a girl's name. Another possibility is that the parents of the child didn't know the name is overwhelmingly a girl's name. https://babynames.com/name/betty says the following.

"The name Betty is primarily a female name of English origin that means God Is My Oath.

diminutive form of Elizabeth"

41

Why are JW's THIS blind?

by BoogerMan in

i had a conversation about this 22 carat gold contradiction with a couple of zealous jw's a couple of days ago.. even their personal "explanations" contradicted each other as they tried justify their cognitive dissonance!.

an absolute delight to witness such absurdity.. "after all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world.

the unrighteous must have practiced these vile things [john 5:29] before their death.

Disillusioned JW

BoogerMan I noticed that you said the following to me. "... thanks for your opinion on what you think the WT is saying regarding "practicing" evil deeds, and that you agree with it". But I did not mean that I agree with that idea of the WT. I just meant I recognize the WT has such a teaching. Regarding what the book of Revelation says, there is much about it which I don't know how to interpret. For some examples consider the following.

The order of many events in the book of Revelation don't seem to be same order as the verses mentioning those events. It is very unclear to me to what degree various descriptions are figurative. Are they mildly figurative or very figurative and very symbolic? For example are a literal 1/3 of trees and 1/3 of grass to be burned up, and is such supposed to happen before the actions of that which is symbolized by the various wild beasts? Do those trees and grass instead represent certain groups of people, and if so, which groups of people? The WT says the those trees and/or grass are Christendom (or the leaders of such and/or the people of such), but I don't think Revelation at all is saying that Christians (even that which the WT calls the people of Christendom) will have woes sent upon them by God as punishment. The book is written to provide hope to Christians, though some of the verses in chapters two through three criticize some congregations of Christians.

When Revelation 20:5 says the rest of the dead do not come to life until the 1000 years have added, I don't know if it means that literally (with no resurrections taking place during the 1000 years) or if it means it in the sense that the WT's book called Babylon the Great says it, or in some other sense. The Babylon book points out that that verse is not in some of the oldest manuscripts of Revelation chapter 20, and thus I wonder if the verse is a corruption of the text (something which was added to the text).

Regarding Revelation 6:2 I don't know if the verse is trying to convey the idea that the rider of the white horse is Jesus Christ, or the antichrist, or a false religious leader, or a ruler of a human government, or someone else, or an organization (such a government or empire).